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 early predictive signs / personality disorders 
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Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:26 pm
Posts: 49
Location: St Pete Beach, FL
Post early predictive signs / personality disorders
Hi everyone,

Other than disturbed REM sleep, does LBD have any other early predictive signs? Also, are their correlations between LBD and personality disorders? I don't know if my father's pathological lying/scheming during his life has anything to do with his current LBD. But now it's hard to distinguish the two apart from one another. Either he's lying or he really is confused about things. Sometimes it relates to his illness/symptoms, and other times to things that don't matter at all. And then there's the aggression. My father has always had difficulties with rage/aggression, though now it often seems related to his frustration over what is happening to him. Again, it's hard to tell now whether it's LBD related or just dear old dad's personality. I guess my question is whether their could be any kind of correlation between 1) pathological lying, and 2) Rage and aggression, with subsequent onset of LBD. Especially the lying part. My father's grasp on reality has always been kind of skewed because of his lying. You know what they say about it being easier to tell the truth because it's so hard to remember/keep up with lies if you tell too many. Well for as long as I remember my father has had a hard time keeping up with his lies. It's like he would believe them himself, and if you challenged him he would become aggressive. Hence, nobody ever did. This seems to me like it could skew someone's sense of truth. Well, now he thinks/believes/argues that things are happening that clearly aren't, and this is the LBD, but it feels like a slipper slope from how he behaved all his life.

Is there anything to my rambling thoughts here?

Thanks ahead of time everyone,

Emanuel


Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:13 pm
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Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:46 pm
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Location: WA
Post Re: early predictive signs / personality disorders
I've certainly never heard of any connection but, that said, my husband was diagnosed many years before I knew him with a 'Passive-Aggressive Personality Disorder'. I only found this out from his daughter years after we were married. Somehow, I don't think there is any connection. During a neurological crisis he had in the '80's, his neurologist told me that 'his brain is wired a little differently'. I wish I had questioned him further about that. At the time, I was mainly concerned for his survival. It bears repeating that, before Lewy, he was a brilliant research scientist and a very witty man, intelligent in every way and also a talented artist.

_________________
Pat [68] married to Derek [84] for 38 years; husband dx PDD/LBD 2005, probably began 2002 or earlier; late stage and in a SNF as of January 2011. Hospitalized 11/2/2013 and discharged to home Hospice. Passed away at home on 11/9/2013.


Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:26 pm
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Post Re: early predictive signs / personality disorders
Emanual,
If the question your asking is do they change because of the LBD, I can say for my husband's case he changed in the fact that in his before LBD life he was a kind gentle man never had a bad thing to say about anyone and when his LBD hit it was like someone dropped another person in his body he became aggressive and combative I would say mid stage LBD, there were little things but partly because I choose to keep my head in the sand I didn't put it all together, such as the day I sent him to the grocery store for 3 things , he got there but couldn't remember why he was there yet knew enough to call me to tell me he forgot why he was there, I just thought he made a mistake.

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Irene Selak


Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:33 pm
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:24 pm
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Post Re: early predictive signs / personality disorders
Oh!!!,

You have struck a cord with me! Others have posted about bi polar disorder and its similar characteristics. I have wondered about personality disorders as they have been a part of my family, i think!?!?

I have started to wonder if what I thought was an undiagnosed personality disorder in my mother was actually early signs of DLB. Perhaps it makes me feel better to think of the abnormal and emotionally abusive behavior was actually early signs of LBD. Certainly, the symptoms have over -lapped somewhat. Ironically, PD disorder and LBD are equally diffucult to diagnose. My sister recieved this (diagnosis PD) many,many, years ago, but has not acknowledged it yet!?!, I think. Over the years I have done research on LBD, PD, .....

I also found the info reported here about inflamation interesting as i have an autoimmune disorder, my sister a thyroid auto immune disorder, my great aunt ,,who probably had lbd also had autoimune disorder as does her granddaughter! I wouldnt be surprised if this line of the family started the LBD and PD! Moms father probably started the Learning Disabilities (LD) of dyslexia and HDHD. Therefore, I have had great interest in the brain and its disfunctioning for many years. I am currently wondering if my sister may have early DLB!!!

In any case I am a fan of EARLY intervention. This is our only hope, for now
Sharon E.


Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:05 pm
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Location: SF Bay Area (Northern CA)
Post Re: early predictive signs / personality disorders
Emanuel -

Early signs of PD and other alpha-synuclein disorders (such as LBD): RBD, constipation, loss of smell.

I know of no research on correlations between LBD and personality disorders. By "personality disorders," I assume you mean multiple personality disorder and borderline personality disorder.

There is some research on depression being an early symptom of LBD in some.

Robin


Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:23 pm
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Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:26 pm
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Location: St Pete Beach, FL
Post Re: early predictive signs / personality disorders
Robin, there are a whole host of "personality disorders," as defined in the Diagnostic Statistic Manual (DSM) Axis II. Here's a summary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder

Multiple Personality Disorder is actually not considered a "personality disorder." It is Axis I, I believe.

Emanuel


Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:10 pm
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Post Re: early predictive signs / personality disorders
What an interesting question, Emanuel. If a person who has habitually told lies all his life has LBD, are the untruths he tells now part of his personality or part of LBD? Was the earlier lying related to eventual LBD?

I've never heard of a connection. To me, the things that my husband said that were not true never felt like lies. When he said he was just talking to his deceased brother, that wasn't a lie -- it was his reality. When he told us (in the middle of the night, while wandering around) that he was an airplane, he wasn't lying. Delusional? Yes. Deliberately fabricating a story? No. When he saw bats on the bedroom floor he was hallucinating, not lying.

I think to be lying you have to recognize that what you are saying is not true but attempt to pass it off as the truth anyway.

My husband was definitely not a pathological liar in his well days. Nor were other LOs I know or know about. I'm sure that a habitual liar could get diabetes or MS or Dementia with Lewy Bodies, but I've never heard any connection predisposing the liar to any particular illness. (Of course, I'm just a layperson, and there is no particular reason I would have heard of the connection, if there is one.)

I'm curious whether having heard your father say things that you knew were not true for years and years has any effect on how you deal with his delusions and hullucinations now. What do you think?

_________________
Jeanne, 68 cared for husband Coy, 86. RBD for 30+ years; LDB since 2003, Coy at home, in early stage, until death in 2012


Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:42 pm
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:24 pm
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Post Re: early predictive signs / personality disorders
Emanuel,

My mother was not a liar but had many symptoms of having a personality disorder. (Not sure how much you know about them?....nor I) It does make it very difficut to distinguish the two (LBD and PD) at the first precieved symptoms of LBD.

My mother suffered from the sleep disorder stuff too. I didnt know about it being an early symptom until recently. Mother passed in Feb. 2009. Wish I had known all of this sooner....!

Of course it affects how you perceive your father's current condition. As you can see it is DIFFERENT! It is Lewy or some kind of dementia! It is different than what you have encountered in the past. Trust me. Not sure they are correlated but definetly connected as they are both parts of brain function or disfuntion.

I suggest learning to be more tolerant and trusting if you can imagine that! My heart goes out to you. In my case Lewy helped me heal my relationship with my mother.

You are in my thoughts and prayers,

Sharon E.


Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:41 pm
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Location: Minnesota
Post Re: early predictive signs / personality disorders
Emanuel,

I doubt that the lying itself was a predictor of LBD or any other dementia. But perhaps an underlying condition, like depression, might have led him to believe he could get away with lying. I have read a few articles that have raised the question of a relationship between dementia and depression.

My mother hasn't yet struck anyone and I think we might have gotten off easy on that stage because her dementia is now getting into the advanced stage. But her father, who was diagnosed with Alzheimer's long ago (before LBD was a twinkle in anybody's eye) did strike my grandmother (his wife, of course) who was a good 6 inches taller than he was at that point. And this was a man who was well loved by his wife, children and grandchildren - gentle, intelligent and accomplished - and above all loving. Mom's doc suspects that he had LBD, not Alzheimer's.

Mom's earliest sign involved tremors in her hands and her chin. That was more than 20 years ago. A neurologist at that time called it a benign tremor and changed her blood pressure medication, which was no help.

We are one of those cases where dementia may be a familial issue. I am fairly certain that my Mom's brother has LBD, but his wife isn't ready to face that yet. My sister is bipolar and I am almost certain that she will develop dementia - maybe the stress of being bipolar will contribute to that. And I have always been what one doctor called "borderline depressed." And I suspect that the same pressures that affect depression will contribute to dementia. (I'm fairly sure of dementia because I am starting to show the same physical signs as my mother.)

So I think there may be a lot of indicators, but we have to be knowledgeable about dementia and attune to the individual to see them. And maybe know a bit about the family history. But I don't think lying is an early sign, just that the lying might have indicated another disorder that could eventually contribute to dementia.

What a difficult situation for you, Emanuel, caring for a parent that you have had lifelong issues and disappointments with. I hope he also has redeeming qualities that make your caregiving a better experience than it sounds like it could be.

Best wishes,

Kate

_________________
Kate [i](Cared for Mom for years before anyone else noticed the symptoms, but the last year of her life was rough and we needed to place her in an SNF, where she passed in February 2012)[/i]


Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:12 pm
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Post Re: early predictive signs / personality disorders
Interesting connection. My MIL had personality disorder issues and suffered from bouts of depression long before any Lewy symptoms showed up. But while she would fly into rages before and be verbally and physically abusive, she is a docile, lovely lady now. Still, the old wounds occasionally surface and my husband has to deal with them and move on. Her behavior was so awful that her daughters deeply resent her and never call or inquire about her condition. I know what you are going through, and have nothing but admiration for you.

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Donna (age 56) caregiver for mother-in-law Margaret (age 88).


Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:25 am
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Post Re: early predictive signs / personality disorders
Donna,

Your mother in law is lucky to have you!!! She reminds me of how my mother was. My sister loved and cared for Mom but was in denial of her condition and was not supportive to me( the care giver) or Mom.
In her childrens' defense, being mothered by someone with a PD can be very, very ,difficult on the children. They probably need to be away from her. Soooo sad, I am sorry

Sharon E.


Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:08 pm
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Location: Salem, Oregon
Post Re: early predictive signs / personality disorders
I've read a lot about personality disorders because I work with special needs kids, and currently have three students, each with a different type of personality disorder. However, my mom was as sweet, gentle, and stable as could be the whole time I was growing up. She's never lied that I know of, and she's never had an issue with anger, even now. I feel very blessed to have been raised by her. She has been depressed twice that I know of: right after I got married when I was 21 and when she and Dad moved from their home in the country into the suburbs. She was fine once she planted a garden and invited all the neighbors over to play a dominoes game. Her personality changed just a bit in the early stages, before we knew anything was wrong. The most noticeable thing was that she became a back seat driver, mostly in terms of giving directions. She would even tell me how to get to my own house! It drove me crazy. She still does it, if she can get the words out! She just began to "interfere" a bit in my life and my plans--even small things like how to make a salad-- and that was not like her. My husband was the first to notice this particular change. I thought I was just getting more irritable as I grew older, but he said Mom was different, not me.


Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:24 pm
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Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:26 pm
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Location: St Pete Beach, FL
Post Re: early predictive signs / personality disorders
Thank you everyone. I'm pretty sure now there is no biological connection between personality disorders and subsequent LBD. However, as noted by some of you (and my own experience with my father), it does make it difficult to distinguish between the two. I think the depression link may be real, however. My father was never diagnosed with depression and he never believed he was depressed. However, he suffered from anxiety all the time, and definitely had "intermittent rage disorder" (DSM Axis II Personality Disorder). Since I've been back in Florida with him, we got him on Paxil, and it has had remarkably positive effects on his mood. His anxiety and rage episodes are dramatically reduced. Could he have really been depressed his whole life and not realized it? Or perhaps the Paxil is just addressing his life-long anxiety. Perhaps stress/anxiety is a causal factor in LBD?

I have spent more time with my father over the last 4 months than I have in the last 24 years. I have gotten to know him better than I ever have, despite the dementia. This is the silver lining.

Thanks again for all the support here.

Emanuel

PS - Here is a photo if my father and I

Image


Mon May 02, 2011 9:21 am
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Post Re: early predictive signs / personality disorders
As far as I know, Coy never had a moment of anxiety in his life -- certainly not in the 38+ years I've known him. 8) Nor did he experience rage. Mr. Mellow is my fellow! He did have depression 10 years before the onset of cognitive DLB problems, due to a fall on his head. It was well managed.

Perhaps Paxil (or something similar) could have improved the quality of your dad's life many years ago. But I kind of doubt there is a causal link between anxiety and DLB or between depression and DLB. People with diabetes can get DLB. Polio victims can get DLB. BiPolar folks can get DLB. But that doesn't mean one condition causes the other.

I'm glad you are finding a silver lining. Your father certainly benefits from your care. It is good you find some benefit in it, too.

_________________
Jeanne, 68 cared for husband Coy, 86. RBD for 30+ years; LDB since 2003, Coy at home, in early stage, until death in 2012


Mon May 02, 2011 9:59 am
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Post Re: early predictive signs / personality disorders
JeanneG wrote:
He did have depression 10 years before the onset of cognitive DLB problems, due to a fall on his head.
That's interesting. I think there was a discussion here at one time about head injuries and LBD. Not wanting to leap to any wild speculations, but what if head injury or the subsequent imaging procedures [CT, MRI] have some role--perhaps in some vulnerable subjects?

_________________
Pat [68] married to Derek [84] for 38 years; husband dx PDD/LBD 2005, probably began 2002 or earlier; late stage and in a SNF as of January 2011. Hospitalized 11/2/2013 and discharged to home Hospice. Passed away at home on 11/9/2013.


Mon May 02, 2011 10:33 am
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